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erectlocution ⊇ boxing jewels

Not in the Most

Which represents the greater hubris:

The first point is rather subtle, or seems so given the enthusiasm with which the standard of intelligent design is being raised. The creative capacity of the human species is lauded as one of the characteristics that significantly separate us from other species, and is fundamental to viewing humans as undoubtedly greater than other animals. We look to our semiconductor chipsets, our skyscrapers, our movable type, our perfect novels, and our weapons of mass destruction and proclaim, awfully, “Holy shit, we own.” To us, these results of our creative endeavors are without the bounds of nature.

It should come as no surprise, then, that upon observing some phenomenon in nature which bears strikingly similar complexity to that we presume belongs only to creations, as we’ve come to understand creations wrought by our hands and minds, we might then conclude that said phenomenon could only have arisen at the hand of some other creative force. Of course that force would have to be intelligent, must be conscious and create with intent, because that’s what we do.

Let’s assume that there is an intelligent designer. It is no feat whatsoever to find fault with this designer’s product (though this is by no means perfectly demonstrative of the claim, as some responses note). I have also heard, more than once and from more than one source, that engineers interested in the topic generally consider the human body to be poorly engineered. Our only saving grace (it would seem) is our intelligence, as, without it, we surely would not prosper as we do (if this is prosperity); but a useful argument can be framed (not here, not now) which would call even this conclusion into question. It is a long way from self-evident that we are, in fact, the product of an intelligent designer, if a product of any designer are we.

Notice, if you will, that proponents of intelligent design might have their bets hedged. It’s likely that someone, upon reading the preceding paragraph, would respond, “Well, sure, maybe the coccyx seems ill-planned; but you can’t claim to know the Creator’s plan! You’re overstepping the bounds of your understanding, sir, and I’ll have none of that.” To which I would reply, “I was only following your lead, my fellow, given that you’ve deemed your understanding of nature to be quite conclusive on the matter of what occurs naturally and what must be created to exist.

“Further,” I would add, straightening my smoking jacket, “it might appear to the wary observer that it is you who has overstepped the bounds of your understanding more grossly, decided as you have that whatever you might make with some hardware and a free afternoon is beyond the means of the remaining entirety of the universe…except other humans. Could it be, rather, that ‘creation’ is not the province of intelligence at all, but instead just one other dynamic of the universe, like entropy? Is it really so odd to think that we ‘create’ because we are wholly within nature, inextricably, and are no less an agent of nature, an organ, than gravity or stars or diseases; and, further, is it really so odd to think that, as an organ of nature, we should propagate a dynamism found elsewhere in nature, producing output which had not been observed prior? What if ‘creation’ is a product of the universe, and not vice versa?”

Here we step into the parlor of JoJo the Semantic Wizard, wherein we find ourselves noodling just how different these conceptions are. What is really so different about explaining the development of some observed phenomena with an appeal to this Greatness over that one? We may debate the details but not the Greatness. That is, no one really presumes to understand everything about everything, or even everything about much of anything; and whether they’re particle physicists or a pastors (or both, or neither), no matter in which of these camps they might fall, for each contributor of this large discussion there is a threshold beyond which we seem commonly to say, “Well, beyond that, we just don’t know.”

I have some ideas of what really is so different, some of which you can likely guess; but I’ve done my part today: I begged the question. Now it’s your turn, to answer.


2 Comments

Here are my questions/responses:
1. Just because the body as been labeled as poorly engineered by humans, why would that be part of an argument that there was no ‘designer’?
If there is a creator then why would the standards of humans be a measurement of success, what are we measuring with?
2. Just because the body at the current state seems to have many ‘problems/illnesses’ doesn’t mean that a creator didn’t make us, it would seem that the choices we have made and things we have done while on Earth should and will have an affect on these bodies that we have. I see how this could be evident in a created body or an evolved body, but not one more than the other.
3. Daniel: “that ‘creation’ is not the province of intelligence at all, but instead just one other dynamic of the universe, like entropy?”
According to the Bible the body is some of both, a dynamic of the universe and a creation, it is created of the Earth (dust) and intentionally for a purpose, not just the course of nature made the humans. Of course that would be a decent argument, only if one believs in Scriptures.
4. Daniel: Could it be, rather, that ‘creation’ is not the province of intelligence at all, but instead just one other dynamic of the universe, like entropy? Is it really so odd to think that we ‘create’ because we are wholly within nature, inextricably, and are no less an agent of nature, an organ, than gravity or stars or diseases; and, further, is it really so odd to think that, as an organ of nature, we should propagate a dynamism found elsewhere in nature, producing output which had not been observed prior?
I guess it could be reasonable to say that ‘intelligence is a dynamic of the universe’, but then I would question how within the universe or more so on the Earth we live, did humans gain more intelligence? How can this be explained, and why do we continue to gain more intelligence but other species do not, or at least not the extent we do.

I think something important to consider when pondering this subject is: Humans have the intelligence to allow them to ponder their intelligence. If everything is an agent of nature (not created), since we as humans are able to be aware of this intelligence and we have the compacity to ‘propagate a dynamism’ is why it happens. We don’t have the chimps in the labs mixing chemicals or cats cleaning up the roadsides of trash. This brings to mind a question, why do you think that all other creations of nature are some how offended or lessened by knowing that humans are more intellegent or superior to others? Does a dog not listen to it’s owner? So, why does the argument of humans are intellectually superior make any bearing on how we were created, by Creator or not?

Just because the body as been labeled as poorly engineered by humans, why would that be part of an argument that there was no ‘designer’?

Taking as a given that some engineers, folks learned in the ways in which things can be best put together, have decided that the human body is not very mechanically efficient or constructed altogether too well, there are two basic types of interpretation:

- the human body is the product of an iterative, unguided process which has resulted in something that works, but which nevertheless could be easily have been improved upon if it had actually been designed; or

- the human body appears to be poorly engineered, but is in fact designed, and since the Designer’s purpose is unknown, we can’t presume to have a sound footing from which to judge.

The first class of interpretation is merely the product of observation of available evidence and expecting any conclusion to be borne of such observation and sound logic. The second class of interpretation assumes that there was a designer, and expects that any part of that conclusion which is not directly supported by evidence must be a product of our limited understanding. It is the difference between putting together the pieces of a puzzle in the way in which they seem best to fit; and putting together the pieces of a puzzle in whatever way you’d prefer them, no matter if they fit or not.

If there is a creator then why would the standards of humans be a measurement of success, what are we measuring with?

If there is a creator, it seems reasonable to think that we wouldn’t be able to understand its methods or motivations completely. However, it seems equally reasonable that meeting the standards of humans would be trivially easy for such a powerful being. It is with the intelligence we so treasure that we measure, and if it is such a divine gift, why would it so quickly lead us astray?

Just because the body at the current state seems to have many ‘problems/illnesses’ doesn’t mean that a creator didn’t make us, it would seem that the choices we have made and things we have done while on Earth should and will have an affect on these bodies that we have. I see how this could be evident in a created body or an evolved body, but not one more than the other.

It is not so much that because the human body, currently or historically, seems to have so many problems that we conclude that there wasn’t an intelligent designer. It is, rather, that because the human body, currently or historically, seems to have so many problems that we can’t conclude that there was an intelligent designer. That is, where is there an indication of such design? It’s the puzzle argument again: either you assume nothing and expect observation to provide some hints to the truth; or you assume what is the truth and interpret observation in whatever way you need to to support your assumption.

I guess it could be reasonable to say that ‘intelligence is a dynamic of the universe’, but then I would question how within the universe or more so on the Earth we live, did humans gain more intelligence? How can this be explained, and why do we continue to gain more intelligence but other species do not, or at least not the extent we do.

This sounds dangerously close to: “We don’t understand it, so it must be the work of some higher power.” I doubt that there is any person who can credibly claim to understand everything about how we work and how we came to work as we do; but all this means is that we don’t know. To say that that ignorance demonstrates the hand of a designer just doesn’t jibe.

More to your point, though, of all the possible arrangements of things, the one in which every life form is equally intelligent is likely the very least probable. So, then, it is no surprise that there should be one or another among them that is more intelligent than the rest. There isn’t any indication that humans were chosen or otherwise determined to have intelligence specifically. That we have the capacity to question the nature of our intelligence is only a product of that intelligence, and does not demonstrate any act of creation or design.

This is an example of the anthropic principle at work: that fact that we are intelligent is equally well predicted by both the theory that intelligence is an evolutionary trait and wholly without the means of a designer, and the theory that a designer created the human species to be the most intelligent. Since the observation that we are intelligent doesn’t help us choose from either of these theories (nor from any other list of competing theories), it is no indication one way or the other.

This brings to mind a question, why do you think that all other creations of nature are some how offended or lessened by knowing that humans are more intellegent or superior to others? Does a dog not listen to it’s owner? So, why does the argument of humans are intellectually superior make any bearing on how we were created, by Creator or not?

I’m not sure how a thing cannot be considered “lessened” to know that there is something superior to it. That is the definition of “superior”. And I don’t think I ever (here or elsewhere) said that the relation of human intelligence to that of other life forms was relevant to how we came to be. I actually don’t think that the fact that we are apparently more intelligent than anything else has any bearing on the question.

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